Traveller-digest     Sunday, September 19 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1106



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Deckplans, lost messages and T5
Re: Question: Alternate Uses of Traveller Methods
Milieu 0 questions (reposted, apparently lost)
Re: One near-C rock, delivered on target!
Re: Subsidized merchants and fighters
het.kind@MailAndNews.com
GT Weapons Formula Change
RE: More Art
Still more art...
Re: One near-C rock, delivered on target!
RE: Still more art...
Sorag
Re: World Builder Deluxe
re: Wiring plans
Ground Forces
Re: GT Weapons Formula Change
OT: Krakow?
Re: Krakow?
Re: Ground Forces
Re: One near-C rock, delivered on target!
Re: Still more art...
Re: Jagannath?
Re: OT: Krakow? 
Re: [Off Topic] Jagannath?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Sep 99 19:09:44 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: RE: Deckplans, lost messages and T5

On 09/17/99 at 03:35 PM,  "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com> said:

>Sword Worlder wrote:
>> On a completely different topic, I keep seeing these little
>> programs for the Palm computers and I was wondering if anyone
>> on the list does programming for those silly things.  I was
>> thinking that a tiny suite of programs for Refs and players
>> should be published along with T5.  Any thoughts on this idea?
>> Are these palm computers powerful enough to keep tables and
>> character stats and spreadsheets and stuff? Hmmm.......

>Or, how about WinCE? 

Can you believe MS naming their pocket OS WinCE?  It's enough to
make you...well, to make you wince.

> Anybody got any  handy  RPG  utilities  for pocket PCs?

I've never paid much attention to the little pocket organizers.
Have they gone past the toy stage to actually become useful for
getting anything done?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Sep 99 19:05:00 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Question: Alternate Uses of Traveller Methods

On 09/17/99 at 09:25 AM,  "Pat Connaughton" <pconn@i1.net> said:

>Over the past decade or so, our gaming group has been using a peibald
>mix of CT & MT with a light overlay or various other canonical
>materials. Lately, we've been alternating our "normal" traveller with
>another campaign set in a completely different era using the
>traveller character and combat systems.

>Has this worked out for anyone else?

Absolutely! 

>Also, has anyone done any systematic creation of alternative
>universes/gaming settings utilitizing the Traveller System.

You bet! <bg>

My games are seldom set in the "normal" Traveller universe, and when
it comes to mixing rules...hee!  There are quite a few Traveller
"heretics" here.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 18:22:55 -0700
From: "Chad Osborne" <strategos@nctimes.net>
Subject: Milieu 0 questions (reposted, apparently lost)

I am trying to set up a campaign based on the Long Way Home/Gateway
adventure, to introduce some friends to Traveller, but am missing a few
details (like what year it should be set in.  I'm guessing near 0.)

Can anyone tell me if Gaar. (Core 2729) was actually part of the Sylean
Federation (as indicated by First Survey and Milieu 0 Campaign)?  It seems
out of place (13 parsecs away, all by itself.)

Also, is their any detailed (and preferable canonical) data regarding which
(specific) planets were in actual contact/alliance/trade with the early 3I?
Does "Full Data" automatically imply contact?  I need to have a solid
background in my own head before I open myself up the the (inevitable)
questions.

Any help in these directions would be greatly appreciated.

Chad

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 21:18:19 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: One near-C rock, delivered on target!

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
> This just in...
> 
> ===== Comments by PostMaster@MailAndNews.com ("MailAndNews.com PostMaster")
> at 9/18/99 7:55 pm
> I have changed the password and disabled the auto-reply feature of this
> account. I am out of the office today, but this should hold until Monday
> when I can properly delete this idiot. Thanks for your information. Now I
> will go tell all other people who complained about this user. :) Thanks
> again.
> 
> Regards,
> GLK
> --
> 
> Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
> 
> TML Great Old One
> Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
> Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

All hail Gridlore, Gridlore, Grid... (waitaminit, I don't want Doug here
in my living room right now, it's not made up for company)!

_That'll_ teach the Ukkie critter to mess with the Great Old Ones.... 
<seg>

Who'd have thought that we'd get a subscriber that made _C**f_ look
mature (at least C**f read posts, and posted his own responses)?

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 04:41:10 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Subsidized merchants and fighters

Peter Trevor writes:

>IIRC Oberlindes Lines bolted an AHL to a subbie ... and still had
>problems with Vargr corsairs!
 
Unfortunately the old Traveller writers didn't always bother to reality-
check their cool ideas (nor current ones for that matter; _GURPS Star
Mercs_ has Grote, and Imperial border world with a total population of
3,100 people (workers AND dependents) running a shipyard capable of
building at least three 600 T warships simultaneously. In order to make
a nice scenario, they leave these three multi-million credit ships,
representing the total GWP of Grote for many years, standing around
with only a few militia squads for protection.)


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 23:02:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Subject: het.kind@MailAndNews.com

I have unsubscribed those addresses.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 22:28:05 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: GT Weapons Formula Change

Somewhere on this list I remember reading about a slight change to 
GT-WOVLS ( GT Weapons Of Very Large Size ).  I think the 
formula had changed from sqrt(Rating) to CubeRoot(Rating) for 
weapons over 10,000 kJ.  Is this correct?


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:55:17 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: More Art

Bruce, were you useing trueSpace or PovRay?  I can't bloody remember...

Jesse






> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Benyamene'
> ZeAbe' Akella
> Sent: Friday, September 17, 1999 5:20 PM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: More Art
>
>
> > Only one shot right now, of the fabled Orrimot hippie-starship
> > 'Furthur':
>
> I love it! This ship is not your Grandfather's Oldsmobile. Please do more
> soon, I am sorry I have no technical advice on improving your results, but
> Jesse will surely give you a clue or two. But I am thrilled with
> the spirit
> of your work.
> ////////////////////////////////////////
> Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523
> IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:48:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Still more art...

Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com> writes:

> Ya know I've kidded about a Traveller artist's list but it's getting
> really popular. Pretty soon the Inquisition is gonna get us for wasting
> bandwith that could better be used to debate pirates, comfy shoes,
> near-c rocks, and the tech level of the RoM. May not be a wild idea
> after all. What's everyone else think?

I'd sign up for it.  Speaking of which... Jesse, I still haven't
snagged my own copy of Lightwave yet, but I'm making do with my
existing tools.  I've finally posted something.

Check out my "so new, the paint's stil wet" Traveller art page at:

  http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/art

and let me know if I'm on the right track. :^)

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 01:02:17 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@erols.com>
Subject: Re: One near-C rock, delivered on target!

At 09:18 PM 09/18/1999 -0500, Black Ice wrote:
<SNIP>
>Who'd have thought that we'd get a subscriber that made _C**f_ look
>mature (at least C**f read posts, and posted his own responses)?
>

All is relative,  hmmm?


Bill Rutherford
worj@erols.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 22:20:07 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Still more art...

Well, aside from useing a PD mesh from Bab5 ;) I think you're off to a
pretty good start.  What package are you useing currently?

Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Mark Cook
> Sent: Saturday, September 18, 1999 8:48 PM
> To: Traveller Mail List
> Subject: Still more art...
>
>
> Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com> writes:
>
> > Ya know I've kidded about a Traveller artist's list but it's getting
> > really popular. Pretty soon the Inquisition is gonna get us for wasting
> > bandwith that could better be used to debate pirates, comfy shoes,
> > near-c rocks, and the tech level of the RoM. May not be a wild idea
> > after all. What's everyone else think?
>
> I'd sign up for it.  Speaking of which... Jesse, I still haven't
> snagged my own copy of Lightwave yet, but I'm making do with my
> existing tools.  I've finally posted something.
>
> Check out my "so new, the paint's stil wet" Traveller art page at:
>
  http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/art

and let me know if I'm on the right track. :^)

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:28:02 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Sorag

"Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com> types:
 >I just found a supplement I never heard of before, called "SORAG".  It looks
 >like a Zhodani character generating supplement.  Was it worth the 3 bucks I
 >paid for it?

Yes!  It's an old Paranoia Press supplement for Zhodani Intelligence!
Published back in the Cold War days when the Soviet Union was the Evil 
Empire and was represented in Traveller as the Zhodani.

Now days we know that Starbucks in the new Evil Empire, and are represented 
in Traveller as the megacorporation of your choice.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it.  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 09:58:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: World Builder Deluxe

>One futher idea that I've used is the major class distinction angle.
>Jenghe is the main world, long since given over to a lower, but
>wealthier population of "haves" while Sat 5, once a colony, has become
>the residence of the "have-nots" and is the manufactoring, mining, etc.
>center of the system. Jenghe is concidered the main world since it is
>where the "govenment" resides.
>
>--
>Mike Peters
>travelleri@home.com

Sat 5 could even be the original world, as long as Jenghe was the official
capital. Compare New York and Washington during the 19th century, or Ottawa
and Toronto or Montreal...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 10:26:10 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Wiring plans

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>
	Given starship load limits, I'd expect such "scrap" cargos to
   *not* be crushed, because the buyers will pay more if they can get
   at things like wiring to get the copper. At *their* tech level, it's
   cost effective to pay people to strip that sort of thing out by
   hand. So you'd have an old car frame stuffed with old refrigerator
   and washer/dryer carcasses, stuffed with other sheetmetal cases. And
   this will sell well at TL 5 and below. Clear down to early iron age
   cultures. After all, just consider what a medieval smith would pay
   for that much iron, with the copper wiring as a bonus (once his
   apprentices strip it out).
>>>>>>>>>
Then, of course, we have the question:

What would a medieval smith have that would be of value to a starship?
Unless that smith's world is quite metal-poor, I'm wondering if any trade
goods he offers the starship crew would be better spent building a mine
and paying people to dig, refine, and transport the iron locally.

I realize the iron was essentially free to the Starship captain, but there
will be transport costs that must be made up.

Now, if the medieval smith makes tools for all the wandering nomads
who are the only ones able to harvest the widely-dispersed plants
that provide a unique pharmaceutical when processed offworld, and thus
this smith's warehouse is the *only* place on-planet where you can
find the seeds of this plant in bushel quantites, rather than a few seeds
at a time...

Bring him some iron. And an air-raft. And a dozen bodyguards with
laser rifles and combat armor. And a big pile of off-world luxury goods.
And keep bringing these things until your local trade representative can
make a nice deal with the nomad chiefs...at which point, the smith
will get a sudden reminder that his laser-armed bodyguards aren't
working for him, they're working for *you*.

Merchant campaigns are more fun when they're more than just loading
cargo and paying crew salaries, but we knew that already... ;-)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 06:50:08
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Ground Forces

I've been informed that I will be writing the GT: Ground Forces book.
Cheer or grumble as you wish.  Couple of requests:

1. Does anybody have a copy of Invasion: Earth they'd like to sell?  Or
could at least send me copies of any flavor text about dates, units
involved, etc,.?

2.  I'm soliciting titles. SJG definitely wants to change Ground Forces.
Right now, I'm leaning towards Imperial Regiments.  Suggestions?
- --

Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 10:46:47 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: GT Weapons Formula Change

- ----------
> From: Bont <felix@felixcafe.com>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: GT Weapons Formula Change
> Date: Saturday, 18 September, 1999 11:28 PM
> 
> Somewhere on this list I remember reading about a slight change to 
> GT-WOVLS ( GT Weapons Of Very Large Size ).  I think the 
> formula had changed from sqrt(Rating) to CubeRoot(Rating) for 
> weapons over 10,000 kJ.  Is this correct?

It's a trifle more complex than that:

For weapons with an output over 1,000,000 kJ, you now substitute [10 X
(cube root of O)] for (square root of O).

Which reminds me that I have a slew of spinal mounts to redo.  Honest,
Chris, I'll do them this week.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 09:01:14 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: OT: Krakow?

>>Okay, I'll bite -- what's going to happen on 2000 06 01 in or near 
>>Krakow, Poland?
>
>1 June 2000 is the day that the Soviet counterattack against the US XI
>Corps and the Third German Army broke through. The US 5th Inf. Division
>(Mech) was wiped out. Scattered small squad and platoon sized elements had
>to try and fight their way back to Germany. Many of them didn't make it.
>Some stayed behind. When Krakow became a free city some of these units
>hired themselves out to local warlords or became warlords themselves.

And this is from...?  Sorry, I don't recognize the reference.


     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 11:12:10 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Krakow?

- ----------
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
Subject: OT: Krakow?
Date: Sunday, 19 September, 1999 11:01 AM

>>>Okay, I'll bite -- what's going to happen on 2000 06 01 in or near 
>>>Krakow, Poland?
>>
>>1 June 2000 is the day that the Soviet counterattack against the US XI
>>Corps and the Third German Army broke through. The US 5th Inf. Division
>>(Mech) was wiped out. Scattered small squad and platoon sized elements
had
>>to try and fight their way back to Germany. Many of them didn't make it.
>>Some stayed behind. When Krakow became a free city some of these units
>>hired themselves out to local warlords or became warlords themselves.
>
>And this is from...?  Sorry, I don't recognize the reference.

The collapse of XI Corps is the standard starting situation for Twilight:
2000.  The last sentence is the setup for one of the alternate campaign
settings (Free City of Krakow, IIRC)

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 11:22:46 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Ground Forces

- ----------
> From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Ground Forces
> Date: Sunday, 19 September, 1999 2:50 AM
> 
> I've been informed that I will be writing the GT: Ground Forces book.
> Cheer or grumble as you wish.  Couple of requests:

Doug:  Just wanted to say that I was probably (OK, definitely) a bit over
the top in the last few go rounds here.  Apologies and congratulations.  

> 1. Does anybody have a copy of Invasion: Earth they'd like to sell?  Or
> could at least send me copies of any flavor text about dates, units
> involved, etc,.?
> 
> 2.  I'm soliciting titles. SJG definitely wants to change Ground Forces.
> Right now, I'm leaning towards Imperial Regiments.  Suggestions?

How about Imperial Legions?  Sounds a little more Roman, which might be a
bad thing (confusion with Imperial Rome, for example), but it's a little
smoother.  All IMO.  

Or maybe Sword and Shield.  This plays off the Regency sourcebook, which
uses "Sword" to allude to the Imperial Marines and "Shield" for the Army.

BTW: nice shooting on Ukkie.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 10:05:16 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: One near-C rock, delivered on target!

> _That'll_ teach the Ukkie critter to mess with the Great Old Ones.... 
> <seg>
>
Yes, I believe it will. Thanks Doug! I am quite pleased I did not have to
"go to work".

> Who'd have thought that we'd get a subscriber that made _C**f_ look
> mature (at least C**f read posts, and posted his own responses)?

Could C**f formulate a complete sentence? Did he know how to capitalize?

And what the hell was Ukkie thinking? What was the point? I have seen a lot
of bad behaviour on mailing lists, the usenet, chatrooms, etc., but that
primate takes the cake. Is the human species devolving?

////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 10:22:20 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Still more art...

> Check out my "so new, the paint's still wet" Traveller art page at:

I love it! The struts on the ship give a real nice touch, and it is not at
all the standard "beauty shot". The electrical discharge has me though, is
that meteorlogical or technological in nature? Very gritty feel to the
picture, not a very hospitable planet. Now you need to post at least one
more picture so that the plurality of your opening lines are true, as you
imply there is more than one picture. Hurry it up! We need cool pictures!

I also noticed that your main page has no link to your art page. You are
waiting to get more art up perhaps? Nice title header, what is the font that
"Traveller" is written in? Where did you get that cool divider? Nice
freighter pic in the corner too. I have not seen this page yet, I'll be
browsing it today.

////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 11:00:43 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Jagannath?

I get a word for the day in my e-mail, and today I got one of possible 
interest to all those vehicle designers on this list. Some folks will know
this already, but I'll bet there will be some who learn a thing or two. I
sure did.

     In the early 14th century, Franciscan missionary Friar Odoric
     brought to Europe the story of an enormous carriage that carried
     an image of the Hindu god Vishnu (whose title was "Jagannath,"
     literally, "lord of the world") through the streets of India in
     religious processions. Odoric reported that some worshipers
     deliberately allowed themselves to be crushed beneath the
     vehicle's wheels as a sacrifice to Vishnu. That story was
     probably an exaggeration or misinterpretation of actual events,
     but it spread throughout Europe anyway. The tale caught the
     imagination of English listeners, and by the 19th century, they
     were using "juggernaut" to refer to any massive vehicle (such as
     a steam locomotive) or to any other enormous entity with powerful
     crushing capabilities.

////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi++  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 15:32:41 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@accesstoledo.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Krakow? 

> >>Okay, I'll bite -- what's going to happen on 2000 06 01 in or near 
> >>Krakow, Poland?
> >
> >1 June 2000 is the day that the Soviet counterattack against the US XI
> >Corps and the Third German Army broke through. The US 5th Inf. Division
> >(Mech) was wiped out. Scattered small squad and platoon sized elements had
> >to try and fight their way back to Germany. Many of them didn't make it.
> >Some stayed behind. When Krakow became a free city some of these units
> >hired themselves out to local warlords or became warlords themselves.
> 
> And this is from...?  Sorry, I don't recognize the reference.

Twilight: 2000, a GDW game.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 16:23:13 -0000
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: [Off Topic] Jagannath?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella <xrp@sierratel.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Sunday, September 19, 1999 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: Jagannath?


>     In the early 14th century, Franciscan missionary Friar Odoric
>     brought to Europe the story of an enormous carriage that carried
>     an image of the Hindu god Vishnu (whose title was "Jagannath,"
>     literally, "lord of the world") through the streets of India in
>     religious processions. Odoric reported that some worshipers
>     deliberately allowed themselves to be crushed beneath the
>     vehicle's wheels as a sacrifice to Vishnu. That story was
>     probably an exaggeration or misinterpretation of actual events,
>     but it spread throughout Europe anyway.

No, it wasn't really that much of an exaggeration. In the town of Puri, in
India, there is an yearly festival, which is pretty well documented. At
different points in history pilgrims would throw themselves under the
wheels.

>The tale caught the
>     imagination of English listeners, and by the 19th century, they
>     were using "juggernaut" to refer to any massive vehicle (such as
>     a steam locomotive) or to any other enormous entity with powerful
>     crushing capabilities.


It makes sense, although I doubt that English "listeners" kept the tale
alive from the 14th to the 19th century. It's more likely that in the 19th
century, the tale was re-popularized, or Puri itself was discovered by the
English. The word pops up in print for the first time in 1841 (although the
dictionary I'm using unfortunately doesn't site the publication). I suspect
that it would have popped up in print earlier if it was kept alive in the
English imagination... add to that the 19th century fascination the British
had with India and the Orient in general, and the picture becomes a little
clearer.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1106
***********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe
"local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
